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08 Red John
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| AgentM |
Date: Thursday, 28-Nov-13, 8:57 PM | Message # 61 |
 Bee's Knees
Messages: 576
Status: Offline |
The pigeon is quite symbolic too, I guess. It is a bird related to the dove ( I believe some places actually call it a dove instead of a pigeon). The dove is the symbol of peace. PJ has made his peace with Red John. ???? Good has once again triumphed over evil. 
As for the controversial 'funny video' --- It is subversive humour in the extreme and I have to admit, I chuckled a little bit at the subtitles....that said, I assume the creator of this piece was not aware of Bruno's connection to the concentration camps...I doubt they would have done it if they did... if they did know, it is very insensitive to have done. 
Message edited by AgentM - Thursday, 28-Nov-13, 8:58 PM |
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| 258pce |
Date: Friday, 29-Nov-13, 3:57 AM | Message # 62 |
 Cobber
Messages: 119
Status: Offline |
I have been perusing various sites to see reactions to the episode and I must say that DS's clip is MILD compared to some of the internet chat. I never understood how invested people were in the game of clues about rj. I was always fascinated by the characters and their development in relation to the whole rj metaphor of evil and death, so I didn't really care too much who rj turned out to be--but there are some who are raging and livid. I regret that it is considered offensive, but I have to admit that it did make me laugh. To me it basically belittles those who are so outraged by the episode. I thought the episode was stunning and profound. |
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| DS_Pallas |
Date: Friday, 29-Nov-13, 1:32 PM | Message # 63 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1979
Status: Offline |
Can we consider such deep divergence of opinion a good sign for the future of the show?
I mean, the most upset or disappointed people will simply stop to watch TM after the "Red John" episode. The series may lose lots of viewers. Not because RJ is dead, but simply because of the way his character was portrayed in his time of dying.
But some might be interested in seeing what will happen to Jane and the team after such a controversial chapter.
I think "My blue Heaven" will have a lot less viewers than ep08. I really hope the contrary, but ratings will probably fall, sad thing for Simon
Message edited by DS_Pallas - Friday, 29-Nov-13, 1:39 PM |
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| Fran |
Date: Friday, 29-Nov-13, 2:04 PM | Message # 64 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 4127
Status: Offline |
Quote tinamarianne (  ) Bruno Heller is making one of the best shows ever (for me it's THE BEST ever) and he doesn't deserve this!
No he doesn’t, I don’t think any decent human being deserves a tirade of abuse such as this. I enjoy subversive humour when it’s directed against a fictional character, but for me, when it’s directed against a real person, it stops being humorous and becomes offensive.
It seems we may be in the minority Tina in our disapproval of this video, but I don’t believe that being invested in a TV show is justification for any aggressively disrespectful behaviour, regardless of whether or not it disguises itself as humour. |
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| kul65 |
Date: Friday, 29-Nov-13, 3:03 PM | Message # 65 |
 Cobber
Messages: 102
Status: Offline |
Quote 258pce ( ) I have been perusing various sites to see reactions to the episode and I must say that DS's clip is MILD compared to some of the internet chat. I never understood how invested people were in the game of clues about rj. I was always fascinated by the characters and their development in relation to the whole rj metaphor of evil and death, so I didn't really care too much who rj turned out to be--but there are some who are raging and livid. I regret that it is considered offensive, but I have to admit that it did make me laugh. To me it basically belittles those who are so outraged by the episode. I thought the episode was stunning and profound.
Being one of those "outraged" people, I want to defend myself a bit by diversifying my take on the episode. Having had some time to think about it, I thought is was pretty great. Really great even. The final scene and especially the last shot is some of the best acting and directing I've seen on TV and the moments that lead there are not bad. I'm not upset about the pidgeon, I thought it was perfectly in line with what "The Mentalist" presents itself as. I'm not upset about Red John being a coward, because somehow, it makes him feel more real and creepy to me, knowing that his intelligence was really only the facade we saw while he could still remain safe in hiding. Timothy Carter was probably an insight into how Red John percieves himself.
My problems have more to do with the impact this episode has on the rest of the show, being that it has almost none. If this had been an isolated episode, I could sit back and relax and think it was one of the best even, but it represents the end to a five year long story arc. Being as it does that, I would've wanted the rest of that arc to actually mean something in the long run. My emotional self says yes. The Red John arc still remains the source of the most emotional moments in the show and the most profound character developments. My rational self says no. If the clues we got had no bearing, they shouldn't have been made so cryptic, perhaps not even have been there in the first place. I am one of those people who have spent hours and hours every week compiling theories from those clues, obsessing about this show like I've obsessed about no other. Thinking back at all that time I spent - not the time I spent watching episodes, because I enjoyed that in and of itself - but the time I spent thinking about and discussing this larger mystery, always with that final goal in sight, thinking back at all that time, I feel betrayed. Bruno publicly went out and said he didn't decide on Red John until after a couple of years, and that stings.
The writer in me says no. The moment McAllister first appeared this season, I could tell that he was the only one acting like Red John would around Jane. Whereas others were confrontative, McAllister kept his distance and acted more friendly and sometimes advisory. Still, I didn't believe it would actually turn out to be him, because I didn't want it to be. Had the show consisted of only Seasons 1 and 6, McAllister would've made a remarkable candidate for the series long serial killer, but that wasn't the case. I was on the Partridge side of things, not because he fit the clues, not even because I cared that much about the "Who" of it all, but because I wanted to have watched a show that was well-crafted and artful from the start. "Red John enters here", Partridge proclaims on his first appearance. "I've worked Red John murders since he began", he notes on a different instance. Every time he appears around Jane, he behaves in a way that could be interpreted as approval-seeking, even wanting of a friendship. And the best one of them all, the amazing symmetry between his encounter with Jane at the start of "Red Sky in the Morning" and the latter's encounter with Red John at the end. The way one person carries the entire discussion, the other powerless to interfere. The first person then appears to leave the scene, only to swiftly come back and startle the other, truly marking who has the power in that game of interaction. Jane directs. Partridge is forced into compliance - Red John directs. Jane is forced into compliance. Watching The Mentalist over again, as I and many others here are certain to do in the coming years, we would have always been able to look at Brett Partridge and say: "Yeah. That was definitely him." With McAllister, while his first episode can be stretched to qualify, it isn't until the sixth season that we'll be able to truly say "Okay. That was him".
Now, I should clarify that I don't blame Bruno here. He has been very adamant about having a seven year plan and knowing where the Red John arc was going from the start. He hasn't actually revealed something disappointing that had never just come up before. What happened was he changed his stories. When this happens, I tend to suspect foul play elsewhere, and I think the blame lies either with WB or CBS, or that there is something more in the future that is being withheld from us. My wish and hope would be that the true Red John appears in the series finale, without any more of the hype for it beforehand, and has a calm moment with Jane where he kind of apologizes for the murder of Angela and Charlotte, revealing that he sent both of his proxies (Carter and McAllister) attempting to give Jane that closure he deserves. Kind of an act on that "friendship" Red John has sought from his old foe. Following that, Jane may or may not accept the apology, but at the very least, this time he does not kill Red John. Instead, he listens to what Lisbon has been urging him to do for all that time and hands him in to the police.
Quote Can we consider such deep divergence of opinion a good sign for the future of the show?
I mean, the most upset or disappointed people will simply stop to watch TM after the "Red John" episode. The series may lose lots of viewers. Not because RJ is dead, but simply because of the way his character was portrayed in his time of dying.
But some might be interested in seeing what will happen to Jane and the team after such a controversial chapter.
I think "My blue Heaven" will have a lot less viewers than ep08. I really hope the contrary, but ratings will probably fall, sad thing for Simon
I don't think The Mentalist will lose too many viewers just yet. Speaking as one of the upset people, I think the greatest reason I am upset is because I care so much about the show. The 2.0 format has been getting almost as much publicity as the Red John reveal and I think it will keep many of the old and even bring in some new viewers. Simon's directing this one and Cerone's writing the next, so the rest of this calendar year is pretty much in safe hands. If there are going to be drops, I don't think we'll see them until past mid-season.
I am very, very excited to see a happier and perhaps more invested Jane solve cases, not to mention what Jimmy Gadd referred to as a return to the feel of the first season.
Message edited by kul65 - Friday, 29-Nov-13, 3:14 PM |
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| shoelady |
Date: Friday, 29-Nov-13, 6:07 PM | Message # 66 |
Jillaroo
Messages: 46
Status: Offline |
Are we there yet? Anyone who has had to keep telling children "soon" have this feeling of relief when it is finally over. Now we can enjoy the party. Let's forget any misdirections and slips and have a glass or a cuppa and send kudos to Simon for the incredible performance, and to the director and don't forget Blake Neely's wonderful use of music to bring us there. My heart was racing when Patrick's Theme Music played on a variation and tempo throughout the escape runs whether by car or on foot, and the last notes, going back to the pilot episode. |
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| Geli |
Date: Saturday, 30-Nov-13, 9:46 AM | Message # 67 |
Surfie
Messages: 92
Status: Offline |
Even though Bruno and Simon and Xander say McAllister is RJ, part of me doesn't want to believe it and hopes, since I didn't hear McAllister say that he was RJ, that it'll be someone else somehow sometime (wishful thinking). I felt quite sad for several hours after that Patrick had killed McAllister. While I can understand that he did it, I feel sad that he felt he had to do this. While in interviews strangling has been called the most personal way to do it, I found it too personal and wish Patrick would have been able to distance himself more emotionally. Of course Simon Baker's acting in that scene was marvelous to watch, so intense. Anybody else felt sad too?
I like Robin Tunney's acting more in the past episodes, her intonation, for me, has become much more nuanced and adds depth to Lisbon's character. Cho was stoic as ever, funny to see him sitting between Rigsby and VanPelt. I found the scene where they laid their weapons down too "choreographed". Didn't Partridge "die" before the explosion at Jane's house? Then McAllister must have had him switch out his DNA way before Partridge "died, so had planned to fake his death a long time in advance? McAllister standing directly by the "altar", above Jane, for me means he's trying to make himself equal with God, which is never a good thing. I don't think we'll find out more about his background why he became this way, "you have no idea ..."
When Jane looked at the gun at the end I didn't fear for his life, I thought that maybe it was Lisbon's gun and he was glad that he was able to keep his promise and didn't use it.
I still have lots of questions, stay away from spoilers, don't even want to read interviews, look forward to new episodes. I think I'm emotionally exhausted from being invested in and caring too much about the show and characters, and my way of coping with this seems to be to tell myself that I don't really care that much. But then I find I do care - probably too much ... |
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| Tina |
Date: Saturday, 30-Nov-13, 9:54 AM | Message # 68 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 2066
Status: Offline |
I too love the music by Blake Neely, shoelady. It makes the episodes even better than they already are! Loved the new music during the scenes in the car when the FBI was chasing Jane.
I wrote an email to Blake a while ago telling him how much I love the music and asking about another TM soundtrack CD and I got a nice reply.
I'm totally happy with episode 8, nobody can think about all details right. But for me it was a very good episode. All involved have put a lot of work in it.
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| DS_Pallas |
Date: Saturday, 30-Nov-13, 1:55 PM | Message # 69 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1979
Status: Offline |
Quote Geli ( ) I think I'm emotionally exhausted from being invested in and caring too much about the show and characters, and my way of coping with this seems to be to tell myself that I don't really care that much. But then I find I do care - probably too much ...
That seems to be the case with this show. I've never been a rabid "fan" of any shows, just series that I liked more than other (I remember enjoying a lot X Files, or The Sopranos, and more recently Castle), but must admit The Mentalist is the first generating this feeling, as you say Geli, "caring too much about the show and characters".
The thing is numerous fans were a bit too deep into that, serioulsy elaborating billions of twisted theories, but unconsiously portraying RJ as the usual serial killer cliché (evil look and sardonic laugh and eveything), making themselves candidates for disappointment. And they forget all along that the real pivotal character of the show is PATRICK JANE, no Red John. RJ was almost just a fantasy, a tool to instill mystery, anguish and suspense ; to feed Jane darker side, the beast in him, highlight his failures.
As Heller says:
"the great asset and value of the show is in Baker’s head and half of what he does. Red John never even appeared, as a character, physically, until the last episode. He was a feeling in the show … but in terms of the moment by moment pleasures of the show those are delivered by Simon Baker and his people, not by Red John.”.
So if you see this ep08 from the angle of Jane's life, it was a very good, strong episode, and it brought a dramatic closure for the charachter.
I'm happy to have now episodes without RJ and a renewal in TM. I really hope a majority of viewers will feel the same. It will allow Baker to show other aspects of his creative and acting talents.
Problem now is I wasn't sure I wanted a 7th season, at the end of the 5th, but now I'll be glad if there is one. 
Oh and I agree with shoelady and Tinamarianne, Blake Nelly's music was stunning in the recent episodes. |
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| marta75 |
Date: Saturday, 30-Nov-13, 2:38 PM | Message # 70 |
 Rip Snorter
Messages: 289
Status: Offline |
Quote DS_Pallas ( ) the real pivotal character of the show is PATRICK JANE, no Red John
I totally agree with DS Pallas. From this point of view Red John is a very good episode and I took the "funny" video as a second degree joke. |
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| June |
Date: Sunday, 01-Dec-13, 10:10 PM | Message # 71 |
 Bee's Knees
Messages: 585
Status: Offline |
I'm back and finally, I could watch "Red John". Several times. The first time I felt cheated and disappointed. I'm one of those people who has been following many clues and trying to put together the pieces of the puzzle for five years. So, my reaction when I didn't find any answer was: What? Why did you do that, Bruno? I couldn't believe it. But I love The Mentalist and although Red John is an important part of the show, it's not the most.
This morning I've decided to watch the episode again, with my mind clean, without thinking about who Red John is, enjoying as always and... voilà! It's worked. It's a fantastic episode full of emotion, drama, action, sadness, extraordinary acting (I like very much Rockmond Dumbar as FBI agent), perfect timing. Sheriff Tom McAllister was never my choice as Red John but he's creepy in this episode and he's a very good actor. I remember some extraordinary moments: Lisbon in the empty CBI (so sad), all the team helping Jane to get his revenge even knowing that they would be arrested, Jane and Lisbon talking in the park, Cho between Van Pelt and Rigsby in the car, the Lisbon, Rigsby and Van Pelt's knowing smile when they find out that Jane is not in the car, Jane's call and Lisbon 's face, so many. But all the final chase and the Red John's death with Jane's bare hand is MEMORABLE. Perfect. Simon Baker, you're the best. Only an actor with a huge talent is able to act like Simon does. I'm actress and one of my acting teachers said "everything must be in your eyes and the public has to see it". His eyes shows his soul, the soul of a tragic character. No music, just him and Red John's last breath. Heartbreaking. BRAVO. Jane running in slow motion gave me some sense of peace, finally he's free to start a new life. The image of some happy families, the music and the laugh of a little girl to finish the episode was beautiful.
This is about "The great red dragon": to see how the tea cup was broken made me cry. I'm going to miss all this so much! I guess I'm not the only one. |
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| Juney |
Date: Thursday, 19-Dec-13, 12:19 PM | Message # 72 |
 Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
Wow I've just watched this episode. What great acting. I wasn't sure PJ would go through with it but glad he did whatever the consequences. I note that woman from the chapel got away. Was that significant I wonder. I'm not sure a chapel was a suitable place for so much killing but there you go.
Did Patrick know it was not Bertram, if not why was he prepared with the bread crumbs and where did that pigeon come from. So many questions. We in the UK start the 'new' Mentalist in the new year. Can't wait.
Another question. Which gun did PJ put in RJ's hand with his, Patrick's, finger prints all over it.
Message edited by Juney - Thursday, 19-Dec-13, 12:24 PM |
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| DS_Pallas |
Date: Thursday, 19-Dec-13, 5:34 PM | Message # 73 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1979
Status: Offline |
Quote Juney ( ) Did Patrick know it was not Bertram
Well I think Jane knew it was not Bertram, and was highly suspicious about McAllister.
I think he understood who RJ was when he woke up alive from the explosion (in ep06 Fire &Brimstone). Because how could the sheriff be dead, though he was standing on the far left side, while the 2 other victims (Stiles and Affner) were sitting on the far right. So the bomb was on the right side, under the couch. As he tell RJ in the chapel, the only explanation seemed that if Bertram, Smith and Jane, closer to the bomb, were alive, then Mc Allister ought to be too.
So, Jane deduced that if in Malibu, McAllister standing in front of him on the far left couldn't be dead, so he was alive! And it was him who dragged them three unconscious away from the bomb.
Plus, the fact that the skin on the left arm of Partridge's body has been removed was confirming Jane the fact that the forensics man had the 3 dots tatoo, so as a member of the Blake Association, he had access and could manipulate evidences, and falsify DNA or any proofs.
So the DNA was not really McAllister's. So the only answer was that he was still alive. And was Red John.
Hope I'm clear enough…
And he knew the sheriff didn't like birds (remember in the church tower in Napa?).
Quote Juney ( ) if not why was he prepared with the bread crumbs and where did that pigeon come from.
He already had the bread crumbs in the park, where he was feeding the birds and met Lisbon, at the beginning of the ep.
That's where he caught the pidgeon and hide it in his inner pocket (birds when in the dark go still, that's how magicians can keep them hidden while they are on stage performing).
Quote Juney ( ) Which gun did PJ put in RJ's hand with his, Patrick's, finger prints all over it.
Lisbon's gun was kept by Bertram's accomplice, Cordero, after he searched Jane. Jane used it as a "prop" as he said to his dear Lisbon, knowing he will probably be searched by an RJ minion. He didn't want her gun involved in a murder. So he used the gun (one he must have previously bought illegally with the shotgun) he hid there under a pew of the chapel, as you can guess at the very end of the previous episode 07.
I don't know exactly why he put the weapon in RJ hand. Maybe to make people think that after a fight, RJ took his gun from him and threatened to shoot him, so Jane could say it was self-defense against an armed man?
But more likely because he doesn't care anymore to leave evidences behind him.
The way he looks at the gun just after he killed McAllister makes the viewer think "He's asking himself if he will put an end to his life or not". Then he chooses not to. He chooses life after RJ. Mainly because of Teresa Lisbon, because right after standing up, he takes his cell phone and calls her.
So he doesn't even take the time to wipe off his fingerprints. What's the use of doing it anyway? RJ doesn't even have gun powder on his hand or sleeve, so it's a proof he didn't shoot. Jane knows his only option is to run and be on the lam if he wants to escape jail.
That were my two cents. Feel free to discuss.
Message edited by DS_Pallas - Thursday, 19-Dec-13, 5:39 PM |
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| Juney |
Date: Thursday, 19-Dec-13, 6:26 PM | Message # 74 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
Wow DS Pallas that was really some answer. Actually I realised half what you said but hadn't figured out how he knew and I didn't know that about birds, so PJ must have realised it was McAllister (I do remember that he didn't like pigeons). I must admit I did wondered why we got the close up of him kneeling in the church but missed him getting the gun, obvious when I think about it. I think I'm usually concentrating so much on the story that I miss the hints along the way.
Thanks for your answer it was very interesting. |
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| angel |
Date: Thursday, 19-Dec-13, 7:42 PM | Message # 75 |
 Cobber
Messages: 131
Status: Offline |
What can i say. This epis was done at a breathneck speed and was incredible. The most enjoyment i have had in a long time. God i hated abbott for being smarmy and so up himself. What an incredible turn by Rockmond. Blimey i really started to think Bertram was no way Red John as he was such a bully and cold that it could not be him. Actually so happy when he got shot. The team werte brilliant. Loved how Cho was on a mission to cover for jane. He hated abbott adn did not want to follow his orders. Loved how when Jane was caught that they came running to support him and cho at the front of it all. When they were in the back of the car hancuffed and Rigsby trying to be nice and cho having a go asking why he called him sir was so cho. Even picking fight with his own wife as well. Grace being frustrated and banging he rhead on window to get attention. Lisbon had to calm them down. Like toys taken away from kids.
But also Lisbon was brilliant in this. She also supported Jane to the point it could cost her dearly and she did it. But what a leader she has proven to be so it was sad when she walked into the empty CBI.
As for jane well what a tour de force turn by Simon. My god from the sharp driving. Was that really him in the chases to his marathon running after Red John. Wasd worried in church when Bertram was going to kill him. And surprised when The real red john was Mccallister but had a feeling it was him. What a brilliant portrayal by Xander. And yess the creepy change of voice so creeped me out. But i think it was a great choice. He is so smooth calm and collective yet has that psycho poise to him. So Red John and he got it down to a tee. Loved the bird trick. How did he hide that bird.
But wow when jane went all commando and shot rj then when the mystery woman came in and jane faught her off. My god he was prepared.
But the fabulous chase in the park was fabulous television. When jane caught up with him i loved how when jane asked the question about his wife and if he was afraid to die we see the marvelous expressions on janes face. Then i thought it was clever to concentrate on janes reactions not rj when jane strangled him. The depth of simons facial acting was incredible. But also the relief when the deed was done and all you could hear was the running water. Just these things stand out. As for in usa people saying the choice of rj was wrong and that he gave in too easily. God sake he was shot twice and he still managed to try and outrun jane so how can he give in easily. What on earth were they watching. But to me simon and xander did an absolute brilliant job and this was deffo now one of the greatest epis ever. Brilliant Brilliant Brilliant |
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