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02 Black-Winged Red Bird
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| bonbon |
Date: Monday, 07-Oct-13, 8:40 PM | Message # 16 |
 Jillaroo
Messages: 55
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Like your thinking, bee!!!! |
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| Tina |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 9:23 AM | Message # 17 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 2066
Status: Offline |
I liked this episode even more than the first one!
I even dreamt about RJ last night. Who is it???
I still don't think it's Bertram, he's just too likable for me. And the thing with the poker game. Would RJ need Jane's help to win a poker game? The way he acted in this episode is just not RJ. Unless it was a real good act.
Styles: The voice and the shape don't fit. And as we know now, RJ is middle age, and Brett is more older age.
Reed Smith: He's too short and too bully. I just watched the finale of S 2 where we see RJ, doesn't fit.
The Sheriff: Could be.
Haffner: I thought he was too easy to play by Jane when they worked together, but could have been an act.
Kirkland would be my No. 1 suspect now that Partridge is out, he's the creepiest one for me.
But to be honest: I have NO idea.
I loved the scene with Jane and Lisbon in the hospital. It was very touching and emotional, and Jane really showed for once how much he cares about that woman. One of my favorite scenes from this episode.
Sophie: I would have liked to see her again before RJ killed her. She was played by a German (heritage) actress I like.
I knew that RJ must have killed her, but when Jane found her head in the oven ... I was really shocked.
Jane didn't show any emotions ... I mean this woman meant something to him, and now she was killed because of him and it seems he doesn't care. I had the same feeling with Loralei, he told Lisbon he has feelings for her, but when she was killed, nothing. He's too good to hold all of this back, but I would love to see him just once to show how he really feels about all this. Maybe when they get RJ ...
This show even follows me into my dreams, but a nice one this night was that I dreamt it was officially renewed for S 7. So hope I had a premonition and it is true  |
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| Evy |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 9:29 AM | Message # 18 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1233
Status: Offline |
Who is Carmen Lee ????
An indication scattered by Bruno ????  |
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| bee |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 12:10 PM | Message # 19 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1525
Status: Offline |
My thought is that perhaps seeing that doctor coming in suddenly triggered Jane's memory of his time with Sophie Miller. Didn't he say afterwards to Lisbon something like being in the hospital and seeing doctors reminded him about his time with her. That's why he phoned her. Or am I remembering it wrong? Will have to watch that part again!  |
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| Ivana |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 12:35 PM | Message # 20 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1223
Status: Offline |
tinamarianne,
I too think that Kirkland is the most likely RJ but there is one big problem to that theory: when he shook Jane's hand, Lorelei was already in prison and couldn't have known about the encounter or could she?
For the long time I thought that Stiles is the one because of the obvious affection he has for Jane. The two of them have really great chemistry together, which is I think, the essential sentiment and reason that drives RJ to Jane. Besides, Malcom Mc Dowell is fantastic actor and it would be so cool if it were him but it seems that he is too old judging by descriptions. 
As for Haffner, this episode is very suggesting toward him, but knowing that Bruno likes to play and tease... I guess we'll just have to wait for more clues.
Bertram, Sheriff and Reed just dont qute fit and I would be disappointed if it turns out that RJ is one of them. It looks like they are part of some bigger plot that we'll find out later, maybe post RJ. In the next episode we'll know more about Sheriff, judging by canadian promo.
As for the Sophie, I guess Jane is too sharp minded to let himself grieve in situation when he is so close to get RJ, and he almost lost Lisbon and is maybe overwhelmed with that sensation.
Tom Szentgyorgyi wrote in CBS blog, "Looking at “Black-Winged Redbird” now, it seems to be a story about people being overwhelmed by forces larger than themselves. Titus Stone, the hapless drone designer, is overwhelmed by guilt and shame after his invention goes awry and he’s forced to lie about it. Lisbon, spared by Red John, finds that thoughts of the suspect list are infecting her dreams. Even Red John is apparently being moved by forces he doesn’t fully control." (http://www.cbs.com/shows/the_mentalist/news/1001342/) Maybe Jane is aware of that and can not afford to fall in that emotion trap.
So many questions and the season has just started!
And wtf is Carmen Lee and what's with all the pigeons? |
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| Ivana |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 1:29 PM | Message # 21 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1223
Status: Offline |
bee, maybe you have a good clue here! I am watching again the episode, scene with Carmen Lee, it could be that Carmen Lee is a trigger code that RJ has planted in Lisbon head by hypnosys in order to start conversation about his happy memory knowing that it would lead Jane to Sophie? |
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| Tina |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 2:25 PM | Message # 22 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 2066
Status: Offline |
You have so many ideas here I would never think of! That's why I love to read all the comments from all of you.
So many possibilities! So many questions! What a great show. I'll watch again this evening. It's always good to watch a few times. |
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| bee |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 3:12 PM | Message # 23 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1525
Status: Offline |
I've also been wondering why we have seen pigeons in the last two episodes and even Lisbon mentioned them in "Red John's Rules"! Apparently doves and pigeons have the same symbolism..."bringing peace and love, understanding of gentleness, spirit messenger, communication between two worlds and prophecy"! Make of that what you will. Bruno says there are clues in each episode but I don't think I'd make a very good detective! I'm totally confused! |
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| sylvia5993 |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 7:29 PM | Message # 24 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 538
Status: Offline |
Great episode, and what a relief that Partridge didn't come back, or body gets lost etc. The Nurse asking for Carmen Lee is possibly another red herring, but ??? The pigeons were also a clue, they are always seen as maliciously creepy so we can expect to see more of them. Simon looked great, it seems he might have had some work done on his eyes, they aren't as puffy, loved his seemingly sleeping in his little room and grabbing the phone. Altogether a bang up job. |
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| AgentM |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 9:12 PM | Message # 25 |
 Bee's Knees
Messages: 576
Status: Offline |
Okay...
I guess we all know nothing is as it seems in TM...perfect example, Lisbon's dream...with that in mind I have to say, I still don't quite buy into the fact that Partridge is dead.
Bold statement, I know, (and I may be wrong) but there are what I believe to be some cryptic clues within this episode. Not sure who identified the body. Of course, it would be Partridge's blood all over Lisbon, that's what makes it more convincing. I just felt that Jane's reaction was a little too underwhelmed at the fact that one of his suspects was dead. The less suspects, the closer Jane gets to RJ...why start killing them? Lots of references to birds 1) Lisbon said that they would be watching the suspects 'like a hawk';2) Partridge (obviously); 3)the title of the episode 'Black-winged Redbird'! I've got this crazy idea that it is a cryptic reference to RJ's identity - black-winged (if you look at the shot of RJ wiping the blood from the knife onto his fingers you'll see that they are covered in black gloves (RJ's trademark) and look a little bit like the wing of a bird - and really arms and hands are the human equivalent of these, aren't they? Redbird - Red as in RJ, bird as in Partridge. Also when Sophie mentions that J Roth claims to deal with conflict and adversity well, but that she's not convinced about this it brings Partridge to mind - check out his confrontations with Jane in past episodes, especially when Marley Sparrow (another bird reference) is killed, Partridge seems fearful. RJ would not admit to this, even when using another alter ego.  In fact, there are bird refs throughout the series...We've also had Fifi Nicks - Phoenix (the bird that rises from the ashes), Jeff Sparrowhawk - Redline S2Ep13. Maybe all the references to birds are Bruno's cryptic clues...ones that people will pick up on after Partridge is revealed to be Red John? Arrrgggggh, think I might need some of that medication Jane was talking about!!!!
As for Carmen Lee? Could be the trigger for Jane remembering about Sophie? Look deeper and it could be the female equivalent of Carmine - another word that describes a shade of red!?
Lisbon's dream sequence cemented for me the fact that Reede Smith is definitely not RJ - he's holding the wrong type of knife! Although he's up to something incredibly shady somewhere along the way - the conversation with Bertram "Exactly how much does Jane know?" Maybe they are part of some conspiracy that is supposed to protect someone higher up - someone closer to RJ or who knows him....hmmmm, not sure about that one yet.
Haffner's strange behaviour and visit to Lisbon, and the whistling - all red herrings, I think, he's not Red John. Bruno is playing us by getting the suspects to share traits of the clues - McAllister was whistling too.
Bertram, although up to no good elsewhere, doesn't give me any vibes about being a serial killer. He told Jane he'd 'be there' when they had Red John in their sights. This fits with wanting to share the limelight, take the credit etc.
Loved the tenderness displayed by Jane, and although he did seem a little bit stressed when asking for the water to wipe the blood fro Lisbon, he seemed very calm throughout the whole RJ related findings. I did like the little twinkle and the old excited look in his eyes when he claimed to have found something RJ doesn't know about - the Dictaphone. 
I think Bruno is actually driving me mad! I await with bated breath to see what other clues he can throw at us - and for the clues that he probably doesn't put in but that I think I see! |
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| Tina |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 9:24 PM | Message # 26 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 2066
Status: Offline |
Just watching again and I too think that the name Carmen Lee is a name related to Sophie to remind Jane of her. It
seems to me he knew the name. Right after he goes out and tries to call Sophie. Why all the birds? It's driving me
crazy. But at least we know it will all be revealed by the end of the year. Will it??? |
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| AgentM |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 9:59 PM | Message # 27 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 576
Status: Offline |
Just a little thought to fester. Bird references throughout the show - here's a list of 'birdy' characters:
Jeff Sparhawk
Marley Sparrow
Kathryn Hawkes
Tamzin Dove
Drake Vermilion
Peregrine Hartley
Phoenix Bell
Mandy Drake
Ariel Martin
Rick Meadowlark
Sgt. Hawkins
David Herren (poetic licence!)
Griffin Welks (I know it's not completely a bird, but it does have Eagle bits!)
Lorelai Martins
Brett Partridge
Jay Roth
Not to mention the references to Jays, Martins and Vultures in 'Black Gold and Red Blood' -S2 and the crow in 'Redrum' - S1
Coincidences? I think not! Bruno, I'm on to you!!
Message edited by AgentM - Wednesday, 09-Oct-13, 11:33 AM |
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| Ivana |
Date: Tuesday, 08-Oct-13, 11:07 PM | Message # 28 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1223
Status: Offline |
Maybe Bruno is just playing with us with "Hitchcock" game and planted MacGuffin 
Hitchcock made The Birds and he was famous for MacGuffins.
This is the description from Wikipedia:
In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so important. The specific nature of a MacGuffin is typically unimportant to the overall plot.
The specific term "MacGuffin" appears to have originated in 20th-century filmmaking, and was popularized by Alfred Hitchcock in the 1930s, but the concept pre-dates the term in film as well as in literature |
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| Fran |
Date: Wednesday, 09-Oct-13, 0:53 AM | Message # 29 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 4127
Status: Offline |
I’ve managed to watch this episode twice now, thought it was pretty good, but wasn’t greatly interested in the drone death or Van Pelt/Rigsby whose romantic small-talk has always irritated me a bit.
As for Red John, there are some very interesting ideas people have come up with here. I think part of Bruno’s cleverness is that the show works on many different levels, to appeal to different people from different backgrounds for different reasons. The symbolism is fascinating, but personally I think it’s window-dressing and doesn’t contain any real clues. Perhaps there are some indicators in the cryptic clues, for example the birds, but I still think there are some straightforward clues dotted around that will become clear to everyone once their significance has been revealed.
What struck me most about this episode was that it seemed to me to be full of classic whodunnit misdirection techniques. So my feeling is that everyone who looks suspicious at this stage are red herrings and can be crossed off the list. I suspect that Bertram, Smith and McAllister are involved in some sort of corruption which is unrelated to Red John. And I think Haffner is just a bit of a slimy creep trying to line his pockets with Visualize money.
My normal practice when misdirection is in evidence is to suspect the least likely, and so as the obvious person to discount at this stage is Partridge, I’m still inclined to think that he’s pulled off a clever trick with help from one or more insiders, and that he’s still alive. I know that on the face of it, it seems impossible, but then many things Red John has done have seemed impossible, and yet he’s managed to do them. I'm probably kidding myself, but partly its because I really want to believe that Bruno has had a plan right from the start, and if Red John is any of the other suspects it would seem to negate that. |
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| PJaneloke |
Date: Wednesday, 09-Oct-13, 5:54 AM | Message # 30 |
 Surfie
Messages: 93
Status: Offline |
I'm also still think Patridge is RJ. All the other just doesn't fit as well.
I even wonder if RJ purposely visited Sophie, so that he can plant some false clue like - being a good whistler - that he knew Jane will find it.
Those birds r driving me crazy too. Love AgentM interpretation, even if didn't turn out to be true, it is still great fun.
I've seen so many interpretation on who "Carmen Lee" is but not satisfied with any yet.
So many questions! I love TM!! |
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