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Episode Discussion - Season 4 - UK pace
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| bee |
Date: Sunday, 27-May-12, 12:28 PM | Message # 106 |
 Fair Dinkum
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Red Rover, Red Rover
Jane receiving a message from Red John on the anniversary of his wife and daughter's death was always going to be difficult to watch, especially as the message was given by Hailey, a young girl about the same age as Jane's daughter when she was murdered, and his concern for her safety was touching. The scene at the graveside of his wife and daughter was very sad. We have only seen him here once before with his brother-in-law when it was clearly an emotional time for him.
Much of the episode revolved around whether Jane should give up finding RJ and move on. The scene in the restaurant was heartbraking, it seemed to be a ritual of his, the waitress seemingly knowing him, especially seeing the three places set at the table and the thoughts that were going through Jane's mind. He seemed genuinely upset. It seems Jane's grief and guilt over their deaths is still raw and it is difficult to judge whether this was the time he first thought of burning the RJ files and forming a plan in his mind.
I noticed that Jane was sleeping on Lisbon's sofa and not his own. Was this significant? Lisbon's concern for him was touching and although he looked upset and seemed genuine about moving on when questioned by her, he is a con man and it was difficult to judge whether he was telling the truth or not. The dark side of Jane became apparent, especially when questioning Ian and taking his inhaler and burying Marx in the coffin in order to gain a confession. He did cross the line here and at first I felt this was because of his fragile state of mind. His calmness the next morning, however, when he told Lisbon he had solved the case was creepy which shows just how cruel and calculating Jane has become during his search for vengeance on RJ and just how far he will go in order to gain a confession.
It was interesting that when questioned by Wainwright that it was only Grace who believed Marx had got what he deserved. She has become a lot harder since the death of O'Loughlin. It was faithful Lisbon who tried to smooth things over but Jane baiting Wainwright was too much and the smile that Jane gave Wainwright when he told him he was fired was telling! Lisbon's concern for Jane was touching, ever the optimist, her concern for him knows no bounds! I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and can't wait for the finale!
Message edited by bee - Sunday, 27-May-12, 1:57 PM |
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| Mossibecca |
Date: Monday, 28-May-12, 10:56 AM | Message # 107 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 540
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I Loved this episode, so much going on.
In the restaurant, I wondered if Patrick had already decided what he was going to do later and was sort of apologising to his family for giving up the fight....if that IS what he has done!!
The scene in Lisbon's office, when she and Wainwright woke Patrick up....the quick glance he gave Wainwright....I couldn't be sure if it was to check that he was taking everything in....and his reaction to it....or irritation that he was there at all interfering....he never took any notice of him again...even when he spoke Patrick just carried on as if he hadn't spoken.
I have to admit that I agreed with everything that Patrick said about Wainwright.....I'm not convinced he is a bad person....just a child....in an adults world!....He irks me!  |
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| angel |
Date: Monday, 28-May-12, 10:13 PM | Message # 108 |
 Cobber
Messages: 131
Status: Offline |
Brilliant episode from the start. From jane sitting by his family grave and then the little girl was very chilling. Loved how he was playing with her when wainwright appeared and the way he avoided telling him about him hypnotizing her but lisbon knew.But when he looked at wainwright and threatened him this was the start. He looked like he really meant it. Great stuff.
The restaurant scene was heartbreaking and the emotion in janes face. What brilliant acting by simon.
Going thru the motions with him burning the red john files the plan was starting. I think he was looking ahead as to what to do. When he told lisbon maybe its time to give up in a way he wanted to do it but the plan was set in motion to trap red john.
Jane had to go dark to get where he wanted to be and the harshness of witholding the inhaler. You began to wonder how far is he willing to go. Then the trap set and knocking the murderer with the spade and burying him in the coffin. Wow how cold was that. But i was cheering along after we were told what he did to the victim. To me burying someone alive is a cold, despicable, callous, cowardly act of murder that anyone can do and i wanted to see him get the same so he could truly feel what he had done.
But i was really disapointed in cho and rigsby when jane asked if he was right in what he did and they kept shut. Yes grace become harder but i applaud her for speaking her mind and defending jane. She is fast becoming a top favorite of mine,. I like the new hard grace and i think also a very strong ali to jane for season 5 i hope.
Jane goading wainwright was brilliantly played by simon and there was a great reaction from raddy with his acting with his response. Great scene between the two. And jane wiping the corner of his mouth and smiling OMG it was almost like he was bullying wainright.
This was brilliant stuff and cannot wait for the finale. Let The games Begin |
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| Fran |
Date: Monday, 28-May-12, 11:55 PM | Message # 109 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 4127
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I thought this was such a powerful episode and a shocking one, not just because the murder itself was brutal and upsetting.
I found the scene at the cemetery with the little girl rather unsettling, and I thought Jane was surprisingly vehement with Wainwright- I’m not sure whether or not there was more to it than just being protective of the girl.
I think Red John’s actions here made Jane realise that continuing in the same way wasn’t going to get him closer to catching Red John, so he decided that he needed to become more pro-active. Both at the cemetery and when he was lost in thought on his couch, I think he was formulating his new game plan, which was the driving force behind much of his behaviour after that. Not the drinking session at the restaurant though, I also got the impression that was an annual ritual – what a beautifully observed performance from Simon that was both disturbing and incredibly sad.
I found Jane’s calmness at the cemetery with Lisbon when he was showing her Marks locked in the coffin, frightening and chilling - this was a particularly ruthless way of getting a confession even by Jane’s standards. It made me wonder if doing this wasn’t just about getting himself fired, but was also a way to relieve some of his frustration about Red John, because there seemed to be parallels drawn between Marks and Red John - Jane called Marks evil and a vicious sadist who enjoys watching other people’s pain.
Jane could have just left the CBI quietly, but I'm sure he wanted to get fired, and he wasn’t prepared to wait 30 days for his position to be reviewed. He needed to get fired there and then, giving everyone the impression that he’d lost his mind. And so after taunting Wainwright, we got the brilliantly done little wipe of the corner of his mouth, followed by the smile when he got what he wanted.
A fantastic episode, but I have to say that I’m glad they’re not all like this, because I love that the show balances light and dark over the whole season. |
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| sylvia5993 |
Date: Tuesday, 29-May-12, 5:13 PM | Message # 110 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 538
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Baker gets to flex his acting skills and that is why he asked the writers to let Patrick go into this dark place. It will be a long con since the last episode "crimson hat" takes place 6 months later and is full of strange and deliberate downward shifts creating this long con but also compelling acting scenes with both Simon and Robin. At least the ending will not be as upsetting as this episode was since this one left us all a little bit afraid to admit that Patrick has indeed a very dark side, almost like when he goaded the killer in taunting RJ so as to see him dead. A very telling moment also is when Lisbon says to Wainright, all is not what it seems. |
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| bee |
Date: Saturday, 02-Jun-12, 6:02 PM | Message # 111 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 1525
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The Crimson Hat
This season finale, like all the others, didn't disappoint as it was full of suspense and intrigue. Interesting to see that Lisbon did not want to appear concerned about Jane being arrested in front of the team considering she had been trying to get in touch with him for six months. Also the fact that she was wearing no make-up! Was it Robin that once admitted in an interview that since Jane had begun working with them Lisbon had started to wear make-up!
I believe Jane knew that Lorelei was connected to RJ because of the way he spoke to her when he first met her. He spoke about killing Carter and it being a "happy memory to cherish". Why would he say that to someone he had just met? I believe he was admitting to her that he had changed and also why would a total stranger put up his considerable amount of bail money? I think he slept with her in order to get closer to RJ and I don't think he was emotionally involved with her. The fact that he didn't appear to feel guilty about sleeping with her was another reason why I think he believed her to be connected to RJ. After all this is the first time he has slept with anyone (as far as we know) since his wife died. It was obvious he felt guilty in the past when kissing Erica Flynn so why did he not feel remorse now having slept with someone? It was sweet that he thought Lisbon had put up his bail money. I thought it sad that we saw Lisbon taking her "personal time" and worrying about him while he was with Lorelei.
The scene in the church was classic Jane, just turning up out of the blue after six months but at least he had the decency to apologise to Lisbon for his behaviour. Lisbon obviously missed him and not only because of his knack of closing cases. He knows she will always help him no matter what and I thought it hilarious when he just bobbed down and disappeared from the church again. Poor Lisbon!
The scene with Lorelei when she asked for Lisbon's dead body as a gift was chilling. RJ would know that Jane would never comply with this and the look of horror on his face was plain to see. Not being the "huggy" type I thought that Jane became overcome with emotion and the hug he gave Lisbon was spontaneous as was his confession when he said "Love you". Also calling her Teresa, which he rarely does, was because he wanted to let her know his feelings in case his plan were to go wrong and one or both of them would not survive. He has come near to telling her how he feels on several occasions but I don't think he is ready to totally commit yet but he is beginning to realise that she has become a major part in his life. This was evident when Lisbon asked him what he had meant when he had said "love you". Jane cleverly turned the question back at her when he said "What did I say?" Did he want to hear Lisbon say it, or is he still trying to protect her? He obviously does remember, after all he never forgets anything! I think Lisbon is beginning to realise that Jane means more to her than she cares to admit also. This was shown by the fact that she had constantly tried to get in touch with him, even losing sleep over him, during those missing six months.
Jane riding the bicycle and joking about Lisbon riding on a man's handlebars with the wind in her hair was hilarious but the scene in the limousine was chilling. Ironic that Lorelei didn't like watching a nature programme because of one animal killing another but had no qualms about cutting off two of Jane's fingers! Just goes to show how evil she can be. I was surprised when Darcy opened the limousine door, I expected it to be empty. Is she the FBI mole...I don't know. How did Wainwright get there? I hope this becomes clear in Season 5. Didn't really like him but I don't think he deserved to die.
I felt that Lisbon was a little restrained when she came to Jane's rescue. Seeing him lying battered and bruised she sat a few feet apart from him. Was she at a loss as to how to react with him after his earlier confession? I'm not sure. However Jane reaching out to her was, I believe, significant. It was both a powerful and telling moment. It's obvious that he cares deeply for her and needs her and I think he was relieved to see that she was safe also.
Lisbon questioning Lorelei was interesting! Lorelei said she had heard a lot about her. Was this from Jane or from RJ? I think Jane placing his hands on her shoulders and kissing the top of her head was a sign of his dominance and that he was now in control of the situation. Whether he had hypnotized her or not I'm not sure but he seemed certain that he would get her to talk. I think Lisbon's reaction was one of concern as to how Jane would accomplish this. Having Lorelei as a possible witness to RJ puts Lisbon and the team in considerable danger and it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and kudos to Simon and Robin for their superb acting. Also Blake Neely for the music which I have to say added to the suspense! Can't wait for Season 5.
Message edited by bee - Saturday, 02-Jun-12, 8:59 PM |
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| Fran |
Date: Sunday, 03-Jun-12, 11:23 AM | Message # 112 |
Fair Dinkum
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I thoroughly enjoyed this Finale, both the first time I watched it and on several repeat viewings, when I’ve noticed more and more little details that have given me pause for thought. The first time though, I found it so intense and compelling that I was totally caught up in it, and I kept forgetting to breathe!
I’ve thought quite a bit about whether or not Jane’s apparent breakdown was just an act or whether there was some truth in it. For me, Jane’s sanity has always been a grey area, and it still is. I think his level of obsession is unhealthy in itself, and this long con was particularly extreme, risking so much by living the way he did for 6 months, seems to me to be an indication that his grief, guilt, frustration and despair have reached overwhelming proportions. So I have to conclude that he is mentally off-balance.
I agree with Bee that Jane suspected that Lorelei was from Red John right from his first scene with her, and that he wasn’t emotionally involved. He had been expecting an approach from Red John, and in his conversation with her, I think he was both testing her and sending a message back to RJ. So by the end of that conversation, I think he knew she was RJ’s girl. As well as the dialogue, there were some other clues that Bruno gave us – her red dress, and the clip they were watching on TV which had a similar theme to the one in the Pilot episode, and also Red Moon.
One of my favourite scenes was the one in the motel room where Lorelei reveals that she’s a Red John ‘gift’. I thought Simon’s performance here was breathtaking, and the little smile after Lorelei left was pure genius.
Another favourite was the Church scene with Lisbon, which I thought was very funny and also touching that despite Lisbon’s frustration, their friendship was never in doubt. I also loved when Jane goes to the CBI looking like a crazed man on a mission, ending with that wonderfully heartfelt hug and simple but effective ‘Love you’. It was brilliantly done, even though I’m sure nobody for a moment believed that Jane would actually harm Lisbon.
My favourite funny moment was when Jane was comparing the melon to Lisbon’s head. That made me laugh so much that I had to pause it while I recovered. The rest of the team were obviously a bit miffed that Jane had deceived them, but that’s not the first time they’ve felt that way, and I don’t expect it will be the last.
The showdown was so exciting, I was on the edge of my seat, and when all the shooting was going on I was trying to think if it was possible for RJ to have escaped from the car. Bruno completely fooled me, so when I saw Wainwright I literally gasped from shock. I do think there’s a possibility that Wainwright was working for RJ, because it seemed a bit suspicious the way he seemed to be trying to find out if Lisbon was in contact with Jane. And just because RJ said that his informant was in the FBI, I don’t feel that I should simply believe him - we can't believe anything he says can we? He could have said that to conceal the fact that he has an insider at the CBI, which seems to me to be a much more dangerous situation for the team. RJ wasn't going to kill Jane, and if he suspected a CBI informant, he and the team would try to do something about it. Being their own backyard, they have some authority there, whereas I don't think they'd be able to do much with the FBI. So it makes sense to me that RJ would want to try and throw Jane off the scent. Hopefully we’ll find that out in Season 5, but I hope Wainwright was one of RJ’s minions, because if he was an innocent I feel rather sad about his death.
After the showdown, I loved the simplicity of the scene where Lisbon sits next to a distraught Jane, and he runs his hand down her lower arm and takes her hand – no dialogue needed for a heart-warming moment of finding a little solace in a true friend.
I liked the ending, because I found it intriguing. When Jane put his hands on Lorelei’s shoulders and kissed her head, like Bee I do think it was about demonstrating dominance but it also reminded me of the techniques we’ve seen him use when hypnotising people. So I’m still in two minds about whether Jane & Lorelei actually had sex, or if somehow Jane has just convinced her that they did. At the time, I was left wondering if Jane was simply being optimistic about getting information out of her, or if he was genuinely feeling confident, but with Bruno having revealed that Lorelei will provide a cascade of information about Red John, it looks as though Jane has got some tricks up his sleeve. I don’t know how they’ll be able to keep her safe, how they’re going to get her to talk, or how they’ll know that she’s telling the truth, but I’m very much looking forward to seeing how it will all play out in Season 5.
Quote (bee) Also the fact that she was wearing no make-up! Was it Robin that once admitted in an interview that since Jane had begun working with them Lisbon had started to wear make-up!  |
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| FallinFan |
Date: Sunday, 03-Jun-12, 6:41 PM | Message # 113 |
 Blow-In
Messages: 9
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Well bee and Fran, I think you've both covered nearly everything that I was thinking and feeling about the finale. Now I'm worried for Lisbon, I'm quite sure that RJ knew that she was Patrick's Achilles heel, but now he's proved it beyond all possible doubt. Jane and Lisbon's relationship is developing beautifully, I'm sure we'll be getting our wedding hats out when it runs it's final season  but for now, I'm worried about her, really worried !!  |
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| Juney |
Date: Thursday, 21-Jun-12, 5:09 PM | Message # 114 |
 Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
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I've just watched the finale again and think I may have got it wrong before. Perhaps Loralei was going to cut off his ring not his fiinger, not so gruesome but still nasty. I can't find my original post on this but thought the worst of her. Don't know which is right though. Any ideas anyone? |
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| sylvia5993 |
Date: Thursday, 21-Jun-12, 5:24 PM | Message # 115 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 538
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Red John definitely told Lorelei to cut off 2 of his fingers, any which she wanted, so Patrick was surely wimpering in earnest for a good reason. |
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| Juney |
Date: Sunday, 01-Jul-12, 4:31 PM | Message # 116 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
I didn't actually hear RJ say cut off two fingers which is why I queried this. But if he did it just shows how fanatical Lorelai is and what lengths she will go to for RJ. I don't think Patrick could get close emotionally to someone like that long term. Roll on next season. |
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