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Discussion
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| Juney |
Date: Friday, 13-Jul-12, 1:12 PM | Message # 61 |
 Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
beautifulbabyboy, I've just found your link to the on-line TG. Haven't tried it out yet but will when time allows. Thanks. |
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| fangs4fun |
Date: Saturday, 14-Jul-12, 5:16 AM | Message # 62 |
Jillaroo
Messages: 51
Status: Offline |
Hi Juney. Nick had to take over the LSP in the end because Alvin went AWOL and Lulu is on leave and decided to work part time. Lulu doesn't seem to have a problem taking Nick's money. I don't mind that since she is having a baby but what I didn't like was her stringing Nick along making him hope that there was a chance for them.
The series really felt incomplete to me. The writers didn't know which direction their characters should go as evidenced by Lulu and Jake. And even Nick.
The episode The Vote where that bitch Saundra caused Nick to lose his job, I thought the Nick in this episode was to out of character. Jake was suggesting a more reasonable solution for their client but Nick would not hear of it and was such a shark in his dealings with the sick and dying client. I would have believed this of the early Season 1 Nick. But we've seen enough episodes where Nick was more reasonable to his corporate clients and seems to me looks out for their best interests. |
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| Juney |
Date: Saturday, 14-Jul-12, 8:02 PM | Message # 63 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
Hi fangs4fun, I thought there seemed to be different writers from ep. to ep. and none watched the previous ep., if you see what I mean. There were lots of episodes which simply didn't finish. The episode where Lulu was being stalked, who the heck was the stalker? It certainly wasn't the poor man who was accused. Someone who could have got into her house, but that wasn't finished.
Also as you say, they completely misread Nick's character in some. Nick was never a sexist and honestly thought Saundra was a rubbish lawyer as he did Lulu when she first appeared. I agree Nick's character changed through the 3 series, but for the better not worse as they made out in that ep. In other words I'm agreeing with everything you say.
I do so wish they could have finished convincingly, everything was so up in the air, it was as if David Hollander didn't care whether it was axed or not in the end. |
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| fangs4fun |
Date: Sunday, 15-Jul-12, 4:36 PM | Message # 64 |
Jillaroo
Messages: 51
Status: Offline |
Quote (Juney) Hi fangs4fun, I thought there seemed to be different writers from ep. to ep. and none watched the previous ep., if you see what I mean. There were lots of episodes which simply didn't finish. The episode where Lulu was being stalked, who the heck was the stalker? It certainly wasn't the poor man who was accused. Someone who could have got into her house, but that wasn't finished.
Oh totally get what you mean. Season 1, IMO, didn't have that problem. There was continuity and coherence between episodes. Season 2 and 3 is all over the place. That Lulu stalking episode, I was not sure who the stalker was. It seemed that all Lulu's suspects were innocent. I was thinking, is there some one else? Then they show us Nick waiting in his car watching Lulu greet Brian. I was like, whoah, that is stalkerish behavior but Nick can't be the stalker because Nick is already so messed up the writers can't be thinking to add psycho stalker to one of Nick's many problems. It's out of character for the Nick I know to do that. I think if he was worried about Lulu, he would try the direct approach. I don't know what the hell were the writers trying to convey with that end scene.
Quote (Juney) I do so wish they could have finished convincingly, everything was so up in the air, it was as if David Hollander didn't care whether it was axed or not in the end.
I agree with you. Maybe Hollander didn't want to compromise. Perhaps his vision of the show and of Nick is different from the producers/network and the effect is the mess after season 1. I remember a comment by Les Moonves, CBS president. He said that he thinks Nick should smile more. My interpretation of this is that Les is implying that a light-hearted Nick would be nice from time to time. As a viewer, I have often wish Nick and I could get a break from all the angst. Certainly, myself as fan enjoyed the rare times we saw Nick smile. Nick smiling is good for ratings in Les's mind and IMO would have delayed the cancellation. Sad for us.
Remember that scene Nick had with Barbara when they had lunch with Jake and Amanda? That was fun. Nick joined Barbara in the joke. Also, when Nick and the police woman had a double date with Lulu and her husband. I liked watching Nick there too. Smiling and joking. It showed that the character can have fun and be sociable.
Simon Baker smiles a lot in The Mentalist. Jane has darkness and pain yet can still be light hearted and tries to enjoy life. And look how successful that series is compared to The Guardian. Les wanted Simon for the Mentalist.
I just checked Hollander's other works. Seems that The Guardian is the only successful one he had. His most recent work is in 2010. He has an upcoming project in 2013.
What I am trying to say but can't articulate well is that David Hollander may be a good writer but he doesn't seem to know what viewers want and can't seem to utilise the actors he has well. Didn't he get rid of Amanda because he "can't find her voice"? I liked Amanda. I thought the character had potential and I have no problem identifying what her character is about.
Message edited by fangs4fun - Sunday, 15-Jul-12, 4:44 PM |
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| Fran |
Date: Sunday, 15-Jul-12, 7:10 PM | Message # 65 |
 Fair Dinkum
Messages: 4127
Status: Offline |
What’s noticeable for me about The Guardian is that it seemed to be issue driven rather than plot or character driven. I think the driving force behind David Hollander’s wish to do this series was the plight of at-risk children, and many of the storylines are based on true cases (his brother Scott Hollander was a Consultant on the show, and is/was the Executive Director of KidsVoice, a non-profit organisation that advocates for abused, neglected and at-risk children in Pittsburgh).
I certainly found these aspects of the show thought-provoking, and also its explorations of the nature of addiction, and of dysfunctional relationships, particularly dysfunctional family relationships. I think above all else, Hollander wanted to challenge his audience to think about these issues, and as far as I’m concerned he succeeded in doing that.
So for me, those are the strengths of The Guardian, as well as Simon’s remarkable performance which I think was a masterclass in subtlety. But the focus on issues sometimes meant that plot and/or character development were sacrificed, which resulted in the weaknesses that others have pointed out - too much doom and gloom, too many storylines left open for viewers to imagine the outcome, and an inconsistent approach to character development and the overall story arc. |
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| Juney |
Date: Sunday, 15-Jul-12, 7:39 PM | Message # 66 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
Once again fangs4fun and Fran, I agree with both of you on everything. Simon's acting was almost sublime (if that's not overdoing it). Anyway it's all finished now and we can only imagine what might have been. I wish I was as articulate as you two , I can never quite put across what I'm trying to say. |
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| lenacr |
Date: Sunday, 15-Jul-12, 10:23 PM | Message # 67 |
 Dinkie-Di
Messages: 181
Status: Offline |
I did not like all the doom and gloom (I have stated it before, more than once), but I thought it was all justified in that context.
It seemed that it was all the miseries that led Nick to some kind of self-discovery: that a lot of money, expensive clothes and luxury cars achieved by a 'shark' attitude to law are not worthwhile, and that one can live happily with less money when they know that they can contribute to society, in this case helping children in need.
This is my understanding of the message that Hollander, through TG, was trying to put across.
And all this means that by the end of TG, Nick is an entirely different person compared to what he was in the beginning.
Message edited by lenacr - Sunday, 15-Jul-12, 10:43 PM |
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| Fran |
Date: Sunday, 15-Jul-12, 11:29 PM | Message # 68 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 4127
Status: Offline |
lenacr - I agree with you about Nick, and his journey of self-discovery was what kept me completely hooked to this show. That and trying to understand him myself. I came to the conclusion in the end, that what Nick needed most was to be needed, starting with wanting his mother to need him and being devastated when she sent him away. I think perhaps that was part of the attraction of Lulu, in that at times she seemed vulnerable and looked to him for help.
Nick's behaviour at the end was completely different to what it was at the begininng, although I'm not sure he was an entirely different person, just that the real person inside had surfaced - I believe that the good in him was always there. I think the show ended very positively for him - at work he was helping children who desperately needed his help, and at home his daughter would need him and love him without judging him. |
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| fangs4fun |
Date: Monday, 16-Jul-12, 2:24 AM | Message # 69 |
Jillaroo
Messages: 51
Status: Offline |
I agree that Hollander did succeed in creating series that makes people think of issues, especially those related to children. I particularly like those episodes where the issue is about a child. I found them fascinating and always leaves me thinking what I would do. Plus I liked watching Nick interact with the kids.
I was a bit disappointed when they changed from Child Legal Services to Legal Services. Was Hollander running out of stories that focuses on child issues? I was not interested in problems of the adults they were helping. We have more than enough legal drama tv shows that deals with adult legal problems.
What I liked about the show is the contrast of the Corporate Law and LSP. In season 1, Hollander found the right balance in story telling, showing parallels between the two.
Like you guys, Nick's journey of self-discovery is what got me hooked too. Perhaps my dissatisfaction is because the journey didn't seem to be over for me. |
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| lenacr |
Date: Monday, 16-Jul-12, 9:45 AM | Message # 70 |
Dinkie-Di
Messages: 181
Status: Offline |
Life's journey finishes with death, I expect - though some people believe there is more even after that.
We are continuously taught by experiences, good and bad for better or worse.
For me the change in Nick was a resolution and a new beginning.
Fran, I believe too that there was a lot of goodness in Nick always; this is what made him such a likable character.
Alvin says somewhere (difficult for me to check quote, as I have watched the series on-line last year and I don't have it handy), something like: he is the most likable arrogant/nasty person he knows (?).
Throughout the series it is shown that Nick is there to fend for the weak (children, friends e.g. Jake, others).
And we are given to believe that his problems (drugs, social relationships) and attitude are a product of his upbringing (mother's illness, separation and death, distant, cold, self-absorbed father, money, etc).
I think what changes in Nick is the values - what is worthwhile and what is unworthy, e.g. that money is not enough or necessary, at the expense of other things, let's say of morality (too strong?). It is this change that gave him the impetus to take a new direction in life. And that is the resolution (mentioned above), the new beginning, and how the series ends.
Re: Lulu, a distant person herself; maybe, Nick wants her so much because she reminds him of his mother, who rejected him in his own eyes at least (though the mother had a different reason in mind).
It seems that Nick's idea of family was these loose, distant relationships. Forming deeper, closer relationships would be another important 'journey' for Nick, but the series stopped and left us to imagine it. Actually he had started getting better into relationships, but I expect his child would become the main force and help here.
Message edited by lenacr - Monday, 16-Jul-12, 10:21 AM |
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| Peithon |
Date: Monday, 16-Jul-12, 1:52 PM | Message # 71 |
Rip Snorter
Messages: 341
Status: Offline |
Having watched all three seasons on DVD, you could see a noticeable drop in quality from the first season. Simon was terrific throughout the seasons as was his support cast with the notable exception of Lulu who I found to be not likeable or particularly believable. Some of the arc plotlines were absurd, i.e. Burton's 'adoption,' yet certain stand alone epsiodes were terrific. I fully admit however, that I am more a fan of procedurals than legal dramas, but I do remember Simon commenting that he wanted to lighten up the show with humor but he was struck down. You could tell they rushed the ending. |
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| Juney |
Date: Wednesday, 18-Jul-12, 11:07 AM | Message # 72 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
I seem to remember that David Hollander said right at the start that he didn't want it to become a series about Nick's personal life and then immediately it became just that. I don't actually complain about that but the series went downhill as soon as Nick became serious about Lulu, a very unsuitable person for him. Kim was much nicer and he just dumped her inn the stalking episode.
I wish at some point, Nick had been shown to regret getting involved with drugs rather than just accepting the suituation. Surely he would have wondered how different his life would have been. Perhaps that would have happened in a 4th series, with his father's firm being lost to Jake (and probably going down the tubes) and his new job at Legal Services. Also would Lulu have taken over again when she got back from maternity leave? My imagiination runs riot, I just hope he would have found someone to love and be loved by. I like happy endings. |
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| fangs4fun |
Date: Wednesday, 18-Jul-12, 1:14 PM | Message # 73 |
Jillaroo
Messages: 51
Status: Offline |
Quote (Juney) I like happy endings.
Don't we all? 
Lulu made Nick's personal life uninteresting, IMO. I thought at first the she would be an interesting character that would slowly teach Nick how to be a normal human. Become his friend, didn't really care if they become romantically involved or not. I just wanted Nick to have a friend like Patrick Jane has Teresa Lisbon.
I can't recall a scene where Lulu was a "friend" to Nick. I recall Alvin, Barbara and James try to be a friend to Nick. Jake too. But not Lulu. I saw Lulu be Nick's boss. Her scenes with Nick is often either about work or about their relationship. I didn't see friendship. Which is probably why I have a hard time accepting the Nick/Lulu relationship. It has no foundation to my eyes.
I liked Kim because she made Nick seem normal. He laughs, smiles, teases when he's with her. I was disappointed that he broke up with her that way. |
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| Fran |
Date: Wednesday, 18-Jul-12, 1:55 PM | Message # 74 |
Fair Dinkum
Messages: 4127
Status: Offline |
Quote (lenacr) Re: Lulu, a distant person herself; maybe, Nick wants her so much because she reminds him of his mother, who rejected him in his own eyes at least (though the mother had a different reason in mind). It seems that Nick's idea of family was these loose, distant relationships. Forming deeper, closer relationships would be another important 'journey' for Nick, but the series stopped and left us to imagine it. Actually he had started getting better into relationships, but I expect his child would become the main force and help here.
I think this is a very interesting perspective, and one that I thought a lot about when I first watched the show. It seemed to me that love had never been pleasurable for Nick, it had always been a painful experience often accompanied by punishment. So in a way I think he was conditioned to think thats what love had to be, and that’s what he got from Lulu and didn’t get from Kim. I agree that understanding how to love and how to be loved was an important part of Nick’s journey, and that aspect of his journey had only just started.
Quote (Juney) I seem to remember that David Hollander said right at the start that he didn't want it to become a series about Nick's personal life and then immediately it became just that.
That’s what I thought too, so it was a surprising direction for Hollander to take, and I seem to remember reading that Simon wasn’t particularly enamoured with it either. I’ve often wondered if it was a reaction to audience response to the Nick/Lulu relationship, or pressure from CBS, or just that Hollander changed his mind.
Quote (fangs4fun) I can't recall a scene where Lulu was a "friend" to Nick.........Which is probably why I have a hard time accepting the Nick/Lulu relationship. It has no foundation to my eyes.
I agree, I don’t think Lulu was a friend to Nick, I can’t remember her ever doing anything to help him. She seemed to me to be a taker rather than a giver, which is why I disliked her so much. But in real life sometimes people are drawn to people who are not good for them and don’t make them happy, so I don't find it unrealistic. |
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| Juney |
Date: Wednesday, 18-Jul-12, 5:27 PM | Message # 75 |
Bee's Knees
Messages: 606
Status: Offline |
Once again Fran and fans4fun, you have put into words what I could not and saw things which I didn't. It's true everything about the Nick/Lulu situation rang false. Even the baby. A professional woman with a career, who wanted nothing to do with the father wouldn't have gone through with it, or am I being shortsighted there, we are talking roughly ten years ago after all.
It all boils down to the fact that I love Nick, so there.  |
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